Today

[orneryjoe]

Originally Posted by tag88

I am in my early 20s and, expectedly, unmarried. I am hardly the ideal source of advice, but i hope my words and beliefs offer some consolation.

To hickeybites: You know, as birthdays pass and the responsibilities of adulthood sink in, i shudder at the mere thought of marriage. Not because i am an adversary. In fact, i always aspire to be the best partner, expecting nothing less than fidelity from her. But, you see, the issue lies with me. I am not sure if i can keep my end of the promise, especially when cheating is so convenient and pervasive, short of presenting itself to us gift-wrapped. So, my point is, feeling bad about the mistake you've made and repenting is the one giant step towards redemption. Infidelity is a very slippery slope and many people head downhill without ever going back up. I may, one day, find myself facing the same predicament as you have now. But then, I'll remember you and your stories of a wild and spicy marriage sex-life and feel comforted. I sincerely wish you all the best in road towards recovery. Cheer up!

We are all too hung up about infidelity being a vice and faithfulness being a virtue. It's the wrong turn taken by modern culture to adopt monogamy as the default paradigm. It's clearly wrong because the evidence is all there that it's totally against our natural inclinations -- high divorce rates, extra-marital flings, visits to sex workers, addiction to pornography. These are all signs of a tension between our culture (monogamy is a must) and our nature (we are polygamous apes).

Our cave-living, hunting and foraging ancestors were all likely polygamous -- people shared everything back then, including sex partners. Then agriculture came along, land was divided into yours and mine, and the notion of exclusity in everything, including sex partners, gradually became the mental, though not the actual, norm. The crucial point to note is that our pre-agricultural frame of mind extends backs to hundreds of thousands of years; civilised existence, on the other hand (which started from farming) only goes back, at most, twenty thousand years. We may look modern on the outside, but mentally, we more closely resemble our cave-dwelling ancestors. That is the basis of evolutionary psychology.

Understand our nature more and you can absolve yourself of guilt if you long for more than one partner to fill the void in your life.

Just one life, so we may as well live it to the full.

[blohsg]

orneryJoe : you're advocating polygamy ? Maybe this whole idea came about from a woman's POV ... so maybe it's a little hard to justify ?

[orneryjoe]

Not so much advocating polygamy. I'm more for polyamory. Because it's more in accord to our natural inclinations. And this is from the evolutionary psychology perspective.

[orneryjoe]

Originally Posted by orneryjoe

We are all too hung up about infidelity being a vice and faithfulness being a virtue. It's the wrong turn taken by modern culture to adopt monogamy as the default paradigm. It's clearly wrong because the evidence is all there that it's totally against our natural inclinations -- high divorce rates, extra-marital flings, visits to sex workers, addiction to pornography. These are all signs of a tension between our culture (monogamy is a must) and our nature (we are polygamous apes).

Our cave-living, hunting and foraging ancestors were all likely polygamous -- people shared everything back then, including sex partners. Then agriculture came along, land was divided into yours and mine, and the notion of exclusity in everything, including sex partners, gradually became the mental, though not the actual, norm. The crucial point to note is that our pre-agricultural frame of mind extends backs to hundreds of thousands of years; civilised existence, on the other hand (which started from farming) only goes back, at most, twenty thousand years. We may look modern on the outside, but mentally, we more closely resemble our cave-dwelling ancestors. That is the basis of evolutionary psychology.

Understand our nature more and you can absolve yourself of guilt if you long for more than one partner to fill the void in your life.

Just one life, so we may as well live it to the full.

The word "polygamous" in the above entry in all instances should be substituted by the word "polyamorous".

The difference is crucially important. Polygamy, which usually reduces to polygyny (male with multiple female partners), was not the likely behaviour pattern for humans -- as it was, and still is, for gorillas. For hundreds of thousands of years, and maybe even more than a million years or more, our primeval ancestors tended to be polyamorous -- more like the bonobos and chimpanzees -- multiple males mating with multiple females. This is in accord with the latest science research.

See for instance, "Sex at Dawn -- The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality" (2010) by Ryan and Jetha. The book is available at the National Library.

[DAdults]

Originally Posted by orneryjoe

We are all too hung up about infidelity being a vice and faithfulness being a virtue. It's the wrong turn taken by modern culture to adopt monogamy as the default paradigm. It's clearly wrong because the evidence is all there that it's totally against our natural inclinations -- high divorce rates, extra-marital flings, visits to sex workers, addiction to pornography. These are all signs of a tension between our culture (monogamy is a must) and our nature (we are polygamous apes).

Our cave-living, hunting and foraging ancestors were all likely polygamous -- people shared everything back then, including sex partners. Then agriculture came along, land was divided into yours and mine, and the notion of exclusity in everything, including sex partners, gradually became the mental, though not the actual, norm. The crucial point to note is that our pre-agricultural frame of mind extends backs to hundreds of thousands of years; civilised existence, on the other hand (which started from farming) only goes back, at most, twenty thousand years. We may look modern on the outside, but mentally, we more closely resemble our cave-dwelling ancestors. That is the basis of evolutionary psychology.

Understand our nature more and you can absolve yourself of guilt if you long for more than one partner to fill the void in your life.

Just one life, so we may as well live it to the full.

You are entitled to your opinions; just as others have a right to reject your opinions. To each his or her own.

[orneryjoe]

Originally Posted by DAdults

You are entitled to your opinions; just as others have a right to reject your opinions. To each his or her own.

That goes without saying. So what is YOUR opinion?

[DAdults]

Originally Posted by orneryjoe

That goes without saying. So what is YOUR opinion?

Hmm... If you really want it... My very simple 2cents: That your views are flawed and does not take into consideration that love is exclusive. You count high divorce rates as evidence to support your case. I can't accept that, simply because high divorce rates does not result entirely from people being polyamorous in nature as you say, which opposes the general culture of monogamy. Do you actually have an idea what is the main reason citied in divorces?

Your crucial point to note is that we may look modern on the outside, but mentally, we more closely resemble our cave-dwelling ancestors. But the point in itself is queer at best. Does this mean we should give in to our polyamorous nature and be no different from bonobos and chimpanzees -- multiple males mating with multiple females? Is this how we evolve? Or is chaos what you desire - that multiple males mate with multiple females without any emotional attachment, or at best, divided emotional attachment? What happens to pregnancies under such conditions? Abortion because there are too many guys that the female has mated with? Or giving birth to the child without his/her father? You are willing to see children growing up without a chance of gaining love from both parents?

Guilt is there to guide people from making mistakes twice. If we were to absolve the guilt felt and continue on such a path resulting in chaos, spurning by spouse and friends, breaking up of families and so on, is there any room for return then?

Yes, we all wish to live our lives to the fullest. Just not at the expense of others who also desire to live their lives to the fullest.

This is just my opinion. Of course, I do not expect you to subscribe to it; seeing you made so many of such comments in other threads. You just wanted my opinion, I gave it. This is however not the place for debating, so let us just stop at here, ok? Your point is already very clear to those who have read your posts.

Like to express my apologies to hickeybites for this post... I know, I am hijacking your thread. Sorry.

[blohsg]

[poly, meaning many or several] and Latin amor [love]) is the practice, desire, or acceptance of having more than one intimate relationship at a time with the knowledge and consent of everyone involved. It is sometimes described as consensual, ethical, or responsible non-monogamy. The word is occasionally used more broadly to refer to any sexual or romantic relationships that are not sexually exclusive, though there is disagreement on how broadly it applies; an emphasis on ethics, honesty, and transparency all around is widely regarded as the crucial defining characteristic.

Feels like a legitimate excuse to "cheat" ... even the definition has some grey areas ...

Anyway ... @ the end of the day it could b down to a question of choice. Your Choice.

This is not mainstream lifestyle ... I find it sexually intriguing but at the same time so wrong ... confusing isn't it ? It's like is it ok for a 3-some or swinging ? Is this just down to open mindedness ?

[LongWeekends]

Hey, dear TS sister. It's good to see you continuing on your story. Have been following your story since April. It's sad to see you ending your story here. But I would love to see the detailed report between you and B during the most recent meet up.

I know it's going to hurt a lot while penning the story down, but you should as a good writer, let your readers know what happened in the final chapter. There's no right or wrong actions that you've done, it's just part and parcel of life.

Cheers, and I hope you'll move on.

[onlyhuman]

Ah har...davidoff cool water one of my top five fragrances till today.
Thanks for penning down ur story...

Onlyhuman

[orneryjoe]

The polyamorous lifestyle has little chance of being adopted by mainstream society. This is because most people are imprisoned by our cultural norms and cannot break free from these mental constraints.

Ironically, the lifestyle of sex workers and their clients does seem to approach the ideal of multiple females mating with multiple males. Unfortunately even those who pursue this lifestyle are racked with guilt because it is difficult to escape from the prison of cultural norms.

I suspect that all round us though are certain enlightened individuals who have been liberated from living by conventional cultural standards. These resemble the superhumans of the Nietzschean variety.

[blohsg]

Orneryjoe : yeah ... Don't think there's a chance for it to go main stream ... not just due to cultural constraints but because we're highly evolved and not just animalistic - indifferent to all but physical appetites.

Dun know much about the Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche but it's reality we are living in and in today's term, I dun see how a non-monogamous arrangement can be consensual and ethical between group couples of 2 or 3.

FL/WL probably dun have a choice in what they do ... probably it's the men's excuse for having more sex ? hehe did poly originate from a Man's point of view?

Anyway ... T/S's guilt is not cultural norm ...

let's not hijack this thread anymore ... Hickey ... more stories please ?

[hickeybites]

Thank you to the sis & bros for kind PMs & posts plus all the various insights & opinions - pretty interesting & enlightening to say the least.
And let me say I'm surprised & touched by the extension of genuine empathy by few of you - thank you.
Erm - I'm not so sure about posting any "FR" on my recent time with B or any other encounters.
Personally I feel it seems ok to recollect past sex-periences with ex-partners; and pen down recent times with H.
But somehow I do think it treacherous to delve deeply into something which I should not have done ... well given my current status.
Who knows? If I'm still active in sbf couple of years from now, I may post about B & other encounters/stuff of 2011.
Personally I like recollecting smutty experiences of yesteryears.. hahaha...
Hindsight coupled with my perceptual soundtrack-blasting brings such clarity akin to a GVmax movie experience in my head


Recently I had a bad scare. It threw up several questions & aroused a mulitude of emotions in me.
I felt concerned, guilty, worried, wary, sad, disappointed, weary, suspicious, isolated - all at the same time.
Questions that went through my mind over & over again:
- Did I cause harm to someone & how could I? Even if unintentionally so, the guilt that I had possibly caused someone hurt was terrible...

- Could H be cheating on me? Has he reconnected with his previous affair partner or had he embarked on a new tryst?

- Is B really a good friend as I've assumed him to be? Would he put me in harm's way? And if not, would he still remain my friend should I unknowingly let him down myself?

- Is it ever safe to let my guard down?


I did not walk around with dark clouds over my head... I don't have the luxury to - we are after all not living in a comic strip.
In spite of the scare & resulting emotions, I know that I'm much more blessed than many people out there.
Sun still rises from the east, life still moves on, we've got to pick ourselves up. I rediscovered running & new/ cool exercises.
I had kinda slacked of late. And dear friends whom I've trusted before really came through for me...

And it so turns out that...
- It's not likely that H's cheating - couple of checks came up negative. However, I too have erred ... so who am I to say/judge right?
All I can, for now, is to pray/hope/keep the faith but be prepared. Still, I was so relieved that I was close to bawling my eyes out.
After all this time, it sucks that I'm still not totally impervious to the fear & pain of betrayal. Sigh... I can be such a "black pot"...

- B is a true friend ... he really came through for me when he really didn't have to.
Am surprised & touched by depth of his care & support - what he chose to do for me this week really blew my mind.
Whilst we were standing around, in my state of immense relief I suddenly blurted out/ sang to him the first couple of lines from 情與義 whilst crying & laughing at the same time.
(Think Karen Mok in 食神/God of Cookery - except that I don't have buck teeth, crazy hair; and I wasn't carrying a cleaver either)

B's expression = amused incredulity... hahaha... Luckily he's familiar with my weirdness & propensity to sprout crazy stuff!

I've been blessed with a few good & caring & true friends -- I think B is one of them. In response to couple of PMs - why didn't I ever pursue anything more with B?
It's simple - he does not believe in marriage & kids; I did & still do today (in spite of own experience & failing marriages around me.
Does this make me an incurable romantic or just a sucker for pain?!?!).
Anyways, we accept each other for who we both are & even with the recent episode, we continue to respect each others' stand & viewpoints.

- Keeping my guard up seems like the safer option. I've been told that I've trust issues but I also am of viewpoint that trust has to be built/earned
& passes the test of time; not something that we just bestow upon carelessly. And it is as much as my reponsibility to prove that I can be trusted as well -
since I'm NO saint, queen or goddess myself. Trust goes both ways after all.


Apologies for a sex-less post (again)
Perhaps with in time & when things get more settled, I may post this one memorable past encounter with B (it happened few years' back - serious!).
I don't remember a lot of important information but sexual encounters -- yep I've an elephant's memory for those!
And I guess I'll always reminisce that encounter as it truly encapsulates the qualities that I love & realize are in my partners so far:
eloquence & wit & certain degree of alpha-male-ness

A good gf, who also flew down to cheer me up, plugged in her iPod & at the top of her voice as we drove down ECP - her way of KTV-ing & cheering me up!
I like this song. This is turning out to be a pretty good week after all ...


Sorry to disappoint any folks out there - B & I have not & will not likely bonk while he's in town.
He's a gentleman & I'm a lady (well - I am most of the time anyways...). I'm just going to hang out & enjoy the company of these 2 good friends.
And no.. sorry... no MFF action either (haha.. my own skewed thoughts racing far ahead of some sammsters here!)

Cheers!

[hickeybites]

Someone asked me this question recently: "What is sex to you?"
I instantly answered without hesitation -- "Sex is a connection" (and I don't just mean literally!)

Sometimes when we least expect it, when we aren't searching... or at times when we've actually given up or feeling jaded; someone may come along unexpectedly.
Multitude of feelings may arise: surprise (even shock), excitement, exhilaration, curiosity, worry, perhaps even fear. And one favourite phrase of mine - being tipped over...
& perhaps, just perhaps a connection may blossom

I met someone who said that I somehow helped him remember his youth...
It made me smile whenever he said that cos I kinda understand. When with him, I could forget (bad stuff, unhappy memories)...
and at same time with him I began to recall my own younger & happier times.
It was as much my own perception as well as his ability to make me laugh, smile & even blush at times...
Times spent together were not long & not a lot; and there were a few rather hilarious moments that were priceless.
I will remember him fondly (& graphically )... hopefully he feels the same way about me *crossing fingers*

With each of my partners, I have a habit of associating them with a song.
Likewise for him. Nah, it's NOT our song ~ er.. I don't think we ever came to that stage of dedicating songs to each other... nah, not our style
But this song somehow resonates with me, makes me think of him...
For You - thank you.


You want to stay with me in the morning
You only hold me when I sleep
I was meant to tread the water
Now I've gotten in too deep
For every piece of me that wants you
Another piece backs away

'Cause you give me something
That makes me scared, alright
This could be nothing
But I'm willing to give it a try
Please give me something
'Cause someday I might know my heart

You already waited up for hours
Just to spend a little time alone with me
And I can say I've never bought you flowers
I can't work out what they mean
I never thought that I'd love someone
That was someone else's dream

'Cause you give me something
That makes me scared, alright
This could be nothing
But I'm willing to give it a try
Please give me something
'Cause someday I might call you from my heart

But it might me a second too late
And the words that I could never say
Gonna come out anyway

'Cause you give me something
That makes me scared, alright
This could be nothing
But I'm willing to give it a try
Please give me something

'Cause you give me something
That makes me scared, alright
This could be nothing
But I'm willing to give it a try
Please give me something
'Cause someday I might know my heart
Know my heart, know my heart, know my heart


This will be my last post on this thread.
Pardon me if my writing has been rather humdrum or dry... and thanks. It's been quite a ride, though a short one

[Rickey]

Originally Posted by hickeybites

This will be my last post on this thread.
Pardon me if my writing has been rather humdrum or dry... and thanks. It's been quite a ride, though a short one

So sad sis , so long & farewell...we will definitely miss you here...come back again whenever u can k...